Mechalomaniac

SimChamber v4 Discussion

37 posts in this topic

So, we have a decent amount of work done on SimChamber v4. Because of that and the fact the old thread is over 20 pages, I'm making a new thread for people to discuss/suggest/talk/complain about things.

For reference the old thread is here.

At this stage we have most of the basic rules done and are looking for people to run test fights to see the system in practice. There are a handful of units already statted to use and getting more done is one of the things we're working on at this point.

The prototype rules are still located here so have a look over them if you're interested in doing a test fight. If you have any questions or feel anything is unclear, please let us know.

Most of the pilot classes and skills are also useable, and have numbers attached. An exception is Brawler's Martial Arts Master specialization which we're planning to rework to being focused around techniques, as it currently seemed fairly aimless.

Finally, as you might now notice, the Hangar, Arsenal, and BEL are on a wiki rather than the forum. This was mostly done for the benefit of cross-referencing information.

If you're looking at a unit and wonder what an ability does, you'll simply have to click on it and will be taken to its lexicon entry. That should help with things like not realizing what the Orbital Frame inherent does and thus fighting a unit far more powerful than your own. The same applies to skills, spirit commands, techniques, and all other types of abilities.

A unit's actual game stats will be located at the bottom, already formatted to the board code, thus you can go right ahead and paste it into your AM or fights or whatnot. Hopefully the stats are easy enough to read with the code visible. It would be possible to repost information under the rest of the unit, but only having the actual game stats once means that there is less of a chance of a mistake being made.

Anyway like I said before, this thread is for feedback and questions and the like, so feel free to ask them or talk about it. And if you want to do a test fight, go ahead and queue one up in the PA. Tilus already put out a challenge for one.

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Why didn't we do the wiki method in v3?

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The wiki method is based, thank you for switching to it. I like the point buy system, and the Unit XP/Stat items are elegant solutions to chips and stacking bonuses, respectively.

Shining Gundam seems anomalously bad for its rank, stats wise. And how do (H) weapons work? Do you need to spend the Morale along with any other costs? I

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The wiki approach never came to mind in v3 preparation. After all the Zeal RP wiki didn't premiere until right around when v3 officially opened, and it hadn't occurred to us how useful it could be until well after that point (when it was far too late to adapt).

(H) weapons basically fire at (Current Morale)% damage/accuracy, to the nearest 5% rounded down. So at for example the base 100 morale it does the listed base damage/accuracy, at 150 morale it does +50% damage/accuracy, and so on. And yeah, it expends the listed Morale along with the other weapon costs (EN/ammo/etc).

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Thanks, didn't realize that had been updated yet. So (H) either works as a proper hissatsu once the fight's dragged on long enough or as a first turn kill if you think you can do over 200% of your target's HP/DP with it, then?

The bigger numbers are throwing me for a bit of a loop, but there isn't a lot of percentage-based mitigation anymore. It's Block/Evade, certain Seishin/Will Commands and that's it so far, right?

EDIT: This is just me, but I still feel Cyber Newtype needs something mechanically to make it more than "Newtype, but marginally worse". Is the fact that it's a Defining Skill supposed to make it better, since you can pair it with AI and negate the drawback at the expense of Brave/Genius/whatever?

 

W EDIT: Thanks for implementing my suggestions.  I'm going to miss DOUBLE CYBER NEWTYPE though.

Edited by Kirby M.D.

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So I tried posting this last night but the board wasn't working. Anyway...

Shining Gundam seems anomalously bad for its rank, stats wise.

Its rank was wrong. It was supposed to be Rank 5 (and should be on par with other rank 5 units)

So (H) either works as a proper hissatsu once the fight's dragged on long enough or as a first turn kill if you think you can do over 200% of your target's HP/DP with it, then?

Basically yes. That said we've hopefully set things up to where you shouldn't be able to do that right out of the game unless there's a serious rank and level disparity.

Note that there are also attacks that are not (H) that cost morale, though they don't tend to cost as much.

The bigger numbers are throwing me for a bit of a loop, but there isn't a lot of percentage-based mitigation anymore. It's Block/Evade, certain Seishin/Will Commands and that's it so far, right?

Yes. Some terrains might provide percentage based reduction as well, when we have them working.

This is just me, but I still feel Cyber Newtype needs something mechanically to make it more than "Newtype, but marginally worse". Is the fact that it's a Defining Skill supposed to make it better, since you can pair it with AI and negate the drawback at the expense of Brave/Genius/whatever?

Psychic Robots are unintentional and was disallowed. Cyber-Newtype's drawback is supposed to be because you can take it past level 1, but you're right. I gave it a damage boost at high morale to compensate.

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First impressions:

 

1: Shining Gundam is indeed a bit weak. I'll have to check if a Shining Gundam Kai 2 is a worthy rank 7 later.

 

2: School of Master Asia Martial Arts also seems weak. The damage and accuracy boost are nice, but them being on attacks that are likely to be barely used weakens it a lot (unless there are Ki attacks that don't use Morale, you can only really use the cheapest of Shining Gundam's every 3 turns normally. (I guess it increases if you're taking a lot of attacks, but I'm not so certain that Gundam Fighters can take it as well as they can dish it out).

 

3: Gatling Punch is amazing. (though this may tie into Shining Gundam being overranked)

 

4: I am a fool for forgetting attributes, and completely missing the Free Morale Skill and Skill-level-up parts of the rules. Still, since I seem to be doing... okay, I guess... I guess there's a limit to how bad your pilots can be, which is good. (Missing the Morale+ skill really hurts, though)

 

5: Turns really are simple, and now that I've picked up the bits of pilot generation that I missed, that's simple too. I can't wait to see the other defining skills, though.

 

Psychic Robots are unintentional and was disallowed.

 

I'm guessing that ALICE will be a special case, once Gundam Sentinel is statted? (I'll be a little sad about not being able to get an installable ALICE, but not very.)

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School of Master Asia might get better once there are more Gundam Fight units statted up, just like Masoukishin Herald will become useful once their respective units get statted in the first place. It (and its magical counterpart) are more niche compared to the psychics or even Ninja (which grants Evasion).

Weird thing I've noticed: nothing but Commander grants Skill to start with. Is that intentional?

Quick question; will more of the older defining skills/classes make a comeback? Like Heavy Metal or Vulture?

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It's not that it's too unit-limited, though.

 

It's that it kind of sucks, even in Shining Gundam.

 

Still, yes, if there are units with Ki attacks that don't cost morale, it'll be a lot better.

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Kirby - We're planning on rolling out more background and series-specific skills as the series that involve them roll into each Season.

Also, ALICE isn't psychic. Did you mean: EXAM?

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Liking what i see so far.

 

anyone wanna do a PA match with unit specialization?

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And that is why I'm either learning XML or not having the assistant have a skill listing. :S

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Some other small things I've noted:

 

Flawless Defense/Evasion don't really do anything anymore.  I'm not sure what they should do, since Shield/Countermeasures already give you the block/evade and attack.  

 

Is the Overheat on Mega Fire supposed to be Weapon Lock?

 

There isn't a CM Dupe equivalent to Shield Crush.

 

Does the Commander's Assist Attack stack with the Technique Assist Attack for the +10% damage/accuracy bonus?

 

Where does it say you can only have a +50% non-stat, non-Spirit Command damage/accuracy bonus?  Is that actually a thing?

 

How far along are the Songs?  The Singer subclass without Songs or any way to sing them makes me sad.

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Countermeasures, at least (haven't checked shield, but it's probably the same) has a usage limit.

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I havent queued a fight yet but I have been thoroughly reading as much as I can on my off time. I like the level system for the pilots.

 

I will start off with a few comments then I have some questions:

 

I like the Wiki for the BEL, Hanger, Arsenal, the only issue I see with it is that without good examples in the rules (which I am sure are being worked on) they do get confusing cross referencing in the BEL

 

The points system is a nice touch instead of doing the straight PP like before. And allowing XP to be used for everything does make it easier (for most of it, its the same system in a lot of ways but I like the Will command trade out and buying policy) ((also as a note your example Annex A links and uses all the examples from V3))

 

The only issue that I really have with any of it and I am sure it is being worked on is good examples for everything. For me I can read and read but if I see an example I know exactly what is meant.

 

Now to my questions:

 

Are we making up pilots for each fight accordingly? Or would you like is to actually start making version 4 pilots that wed want to fight with and we can modify them as the rules update?

 

And for the Mechs since this is entirely PA based would there be any specific things youd like tested or would you just want to see if the system works itself first?

 

And can someone please explain the upgrade/evo thing to me cause it doesnt make any kind of sense?

 

Also if this helps I scripted a mech for use, its from New Mobile Report Gundam Wing (my favorite series):

 

XXXG-01H Gundam Heavyarms

Statistics:
HP: 4300, DP: 4200, EN: 140
IS: 5, Move: G, Size: M, Season: 1
Rank: 5, Type: Mobile Suit


Weapons:
[+]Vulcan- 400 damage, 600 accuracy, 20 rounds

 

Element: Physical, Bullet, Reaction

 

[F]Melee (M)- 600 damage

 

Element: Physical, Reaction

[F]Army Knife (M)- 800 damage

 

Element: Physical

 

[+]Machine Cannon- 1100 damage, 900 accuracy, 10 rounds

 

Element: Physical, Bullet

 

[+]Chest Gatling Gun-700 damage #2, 1200 accuracy, 12 rounds

 

Element: Physical, Bullet

 

[+]Shoulder Homing Missiles (PGSX:4) -600 damage, 800 accuracy, 24 rounds

 

Element: Physical, Rocket

 

[+]Gatling Gun (SF:5) -900 damage, 1200 accuracy, 30 rounds

 

Element: Physical, Bullet

 

[+]Full Open Attack (S) -4200, 1400, 3 rounds

Element: Physical, Bullet

 


Inherent Abilities:
1) Countermeasures
2) Self Destruct

3) -300 DP in Space terrain

Edited by Maltiok Shiroshi

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Flawless Defense/Evasion don't really do anything anymore. I'm not sure what they should do, since Shield/Countermeasures already give you the block/evade and attack.

Shields and Countermeasure have usage limits, while Flawless Defense and Evasion merely cost Morale.

There isn't a CM Dupe equivalent to Shield Crush.

Not everything needs a mirror, especially when it's illogical.

Does the Commander's Assist Attack stack with the Technique Assist Attack for the +10% damage/accuracy bonus?

These are different abilities.

Where does it say you can only have a +50% non-stat, non-Spirit Command damage/accuracy bonus? Is that actually a thing?

Combat rules

I like the Wiki for the BEL, Hanger, Arsenal, the only issue I see with it is that without good examples in the rules (which I am sure are being worked on) they do get confusing cross referencing in the BEL

In what way do you mean?

Are we making up pilots for each fight accordingly? Or would you like is to actually start making version 4 pilots that wed want to fight with and we can modify them as the rules update?

As v4 is not active, and the only fights for v4 currently being canned testing matches, players are expected to make up pilots for each fight.

And for the Mechs since this is entirely PA based would there be any specific things youd like tested or would you just want to see if the system works itself first?

We want people to play in the v4 systems and comment about them.

And can someone please explain the upgrade/evo thing to me cause it doesnt make any kind of sense?

In what way?

Also, you might have missed it, but the unit list in the Hangar so far was a direct result of player voting. We did this both to have a limited list of units to convert to make sure that the starting balance is strong, and also because v4 in general will be based on the idea of seasons which has different series available to ensure stronger balance. Wing wasn't one of the winning series, so while it'll get in eventually, we're not considering it currently.

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Is the Overheat on Mega Fire supposed to be Weapon Lock?

Sort of. I think I intended it to be a status where your weapons cost more EN to use (similar to what desert terrain does now). I'll switch it to weapon lock for now though.

 

How far along are the Songs?  The Singer subclass without Songs or any way to sing them makes me sad.

Since we don't have Macross 7 to start, for now the songs will be primarily thorough the Sound Energy System item, though Mic Sounders has some song attacks as well. There might also be something from Macross F. I'd have to look.

They're probably going to work fundamentally the same as they do now though.

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Umb, Flawless Evasion and Defense say they make Evade/Block reduce accuracy/damage by 50%. Evade and Block already do that. Is the intent that they act like Shield or CM but costing morale?

Having a CM Dupe attack isn't that illogical to me, especially with some of the other things you can do with techniques. Call it Zen Archery or Instinctual Shot or Deadeye Shot and make it the Smoke Screen to Shield Crush's Sword Shield.

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Umb, Flawless Evasion and Defense say they make Evade/Block reduce accuracy/damage by 50%. Evade and Block already do that. Is the intent that they act like Shield or CM but costing morale?

Block and Evade were intended to be -30% by default, not -50%. We noticed they were still 50% in the rules as these test fights started so we left it as is to see how it played out. We're probably going to shift it to 30% though.

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Four Glory and Honor Report

This, being the third of the test matches I queued up, I wanted to go ahead and test some of the multi-pilot SRs that were being statted, since my inclination was that the multi-pilot SRs would be among the strongest units in v4 when it would come out. While the Getter build, which made use of its' varying pilots plus Variable Form Specialty to be able to switch forms on the fly already found its' way into Advance Fourward, I found it would do well in the Four Glory and Honor team as well. In addition, I was working on a Combattler build that would stack up the three base stats it cared about to the moon with a bunch of Sub-Pilots, something I'd been thinking of doing when v4 officially launches, and decided to see how well that build would do in this fight. To round out the team and to ensure survivability I tossed in the Diana-A repairbot from What Are You Waiting Four. What I expected was to bring out SRs to take down other SRs.

Of course, Yuu then went ahead and brought some hyper-RRs to the table. Not only that, but at first glance he was clearly better equipped to bring down my team than I was his, seeing that many of his attacks could do damage in addition to being accurate, while I was set up to just fling huge damage attacks at my opponent. On top of that, his build had very minimal concern for the Morale system; with only a single, one-round (H) on each unit and multiple much more spammable combo attacks and not-quite-hissatsus meant he could just come out guns blazing constantly and never have to fret about keeping Morale high.

I even fully expected him to just torpedo his Morale all the way down to 0 on the first couple of turns flinging Hot Blooded Unified Attacks at me. And had I not brought Counter Zone on Getter - something I pretty much did to fill out a technique slot, not for any kind of real strategy - he most likely very well could have done just that to one shot Diana-A on turn 1 then one shot Combattler on the next. With myself effectively down to Getter he could then take his sweet time wearing me down.

My first couple of turns in the fight proper were for feeling him out - I figured from the start that the At-Wills were pretty useless, and they're doubly useless against something with a free Thruster like a Valk, not to mention having to deal with the free Leadership Temp DP - but found out pretty quickly that against Yuu's very strong dodge setup (free thrusters, Countermeasures letting him evade and keep his attack phase, and Leadership giving him a good chunk of Temp DP every turn) that he was even shrugging off the situational attacks.

I then realized that using anything short of a hissatsu against this nigh-impenetrable dodge wall would drain my resources far faster than it drains his, and I also found out that while I could replenish my attacking resources (Diana-A's pilot had three doses of the Resupply spirit command, and could Resupply (if only for a meager 5%) Combattler and Getter, plus Getter had a Spare Battery on it), Yuu was limited to the Reloader on the Gundam. Therefore, I knew that I would have the advantage in a long, drawn out fight - and after the third turn, whereupon I fired a pair of (H)es, I would break out my turtle shell and hunker down while I accumulated Morale and wear out his resources, only coming out when I had enough Morale to attack with an (H) that would cap out my non-Attribute bonuses (or come very close to doing so). It would be boring as all get out and soul-killing to the extreme, but hey, if it works I'll go for it.

The entire rest of the fight pretty much followed that pattern, except for one instance shortly after going into turtle mode where Yuu attempted to score a killshot against Combattler; this is the one time where my incidental taking of Counter Zone saved me.

Overall I do think I have to agree Blocking/Evading is a touch too powerful in the current rules if you want to discourage mass turtling as an effective strategy. In this case anything short of an (H) wasn't going to do much to Yuu, so I was pretty naturally thrown into the strategy. Bringing it back to 30% might help in that regard.

As mentioned in #sc4e I was by and large underwhelmed by non-free Barriers/Thrusters; they drain your resources but with attacks doing 7-10x your barrier's/thruster's strength being commonplace and occasionally dealing much more than even that, it feels like trying to ward off metal swords with paper shields. On the other hand, the free Thruster on the Valk does make for a very, very effective At-Will deterrant. You may as well not even bother with At-Wills against them.

Likewise I felt the amount Repaired by repairbots is similarly underwhelming; even with a pretty much fully twinked out Repair I'm only healing back a mere fraction of the damage being dealt out, and pretty much the most effective use I got out of it was toward the end helping Combattler bounce up and down the Potential threshold so that the Potential Temp HP could kick in multiple times.

Prior to the match I felt Combattler was the strongest unit in the SC, due to its' subpilots being able to supply a ton of stats and abilities to the main pilot; now I'd have to say it's a tossup between Combattler and Getter. With a trio of Getter specialized pilots, Getter's adapability via its' form changing is not to be underestimated; being able to switch between forms to take advantage of its' wildly different HP/DP totals to shrug off far more attacks than a normal unit of its' rank can, in addition to the varying types of attacks, make it easily the game's most flexible unit so far.

As for quickness of play, deploying (which admittedly is taking longer than normal since the capability of copy/pasting pilots in from your BEL doesn't exist yet) and posting the first turn still take an eternity, but after that things do indeed speed up quite a bit over v3.

I think v4 in the end accomplishes quite a bit of what it intended to do. It still very much needs some tweaking, but the core is rather solid.

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how about the balance between dodge in RRs and tank in SRs? is dodging a viable strategy now?

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