Mechalomaniac

SimChamber v4 Discussion

37 posts in this topic

Four Glory and Honor Report

This, being the third of the test matches I queued up, I wanted to go ahead and test some of the multi-pilot SRs that were being statted, since my inclination was that the multi-pilot SRs would be among the strongest units in v4 when it would come out. While the Getter build, which made use of its' varying pilots plus Variable Form Specialty to be able to switch forms on the fly already found its' way into Advance Fourward, I found it would do well in the Four Glory and Honor team as well. In addition, I was working on a Combattler build that would stack up the three base stats it cared about to the moon with a bunch of Sub-Pilots, something I'd been thinking of doing when v4 officially launches, and decided to see how well that build would do in this fight. To round out the team and to ensure survivability I tossed in the Diana-A repairbot from What Are You Waiting Four. What I expected was to bring out SRs to take down other SRs.

Of course, Yuu then went ahead and brought some hyper-RRs to the table. Not only that, but at first glance he was clearly better equipped to bring down my team than I was his, seeing that many of his attacks could do damage in addition to being accurate, while I was set up to just fling huge damage attacks at my opponent. On top of that, his build had very minimal concern for the Morale system; with only a single, one-round (H) on each unit and multiple much more spammable combo attacks and not-quite-hissatsus meant he could just come out guns blazing constantly and never have to fret about keeping Morale high.

I even fully expected him to just torpedo his Morale all the way down to 0 on the first couple of turns flinging Hot Blooded Unified Attacks at me. And had I not brought Counter Zone on Getter - something I pretty much did to fill out a technique slot, not for any kind of real strategy - he most likely very well could have done just that to one shot Diana-A on turn 1 then one shot Combattler on the next. With myself effectively down to Getter he could then take his sweet time wearing me down.

My first couple of turns in the fight proper were for feeling him out - I figured from the start that the At-Wills were pretty useless, and they're doubly useless against something with a free Thruster like a Valk, not to mention having to deal with the free Leadership Temp DP - but found out pretty quickly that against Yuu's very strong dodge setup (free thrusters, Countermeasures letting him evade and keep his attack phase, and Leadership giving him a good chunk of Temp DP every turn) that he was even shrugging off the situational attacks.

I then realized that using anything short of a hissatsu against this nigh-impenetrable dodge wall would drain my resources far faster than it drains his, and I also found out that while I could replenish my attacking resources (Diana-A's pilot had three doses of the Resupply spirit command, and could Resupply (if only for a meager 5%) Combattler and Getter, plus Getter had a Spare Battery on it), Yuu was limited to the Reloader on the Gundam. Therefore, I knew that I would have the advantage in a long, drawn out fight - and after the third turn, whereupon I fired a pair of (H)es, I would break out my turtle shell and hunker down while I accumulated Morale and wear out his resources, only coming out when I had enough Morale to attack with an (H) that would cap out my non-Attribute bonuses (or come very close to doing so). It would be boring as all get out and soul-killing to the extreme, but hey, if it works I'll go for it.

The entire rest of the fight pretty much followed that pattern, except for one instance shortly after going into turtle mode where Yuu attempted to score a killshot against Combattler; this is the one time where my incidental taking of Counter Zone saved me.

Overall I do think I have to agree Blocking/Evading is a touch too powerful in the current rules if you want to discourage mass turtling as an effective strategy. In this case anything short of an (H) wasn't going to do much to Yuu, so I was pretty naturally thrown into the strategy. Bringing it back to 30% might help in that regard.

As mentioned in #sc4e I was by and large underwhelmed by non-free Barriers/Thrusters; they drain your resources but with attacks doing 7-10x your barrier's/thruster's strength being commonplace and occasionally dealing much more than even that, it feels like trying to ward off metal swords with paper shields. On the other hand, the free Thruster on the Valk does make for a very, very effective At-Will deterrant. You may as well not even bother with At-Wills against them.

Likewise I felt the amount Repaired by repairbots is similarly underwhelming; even with a pretty much fully twinked out Repair I'm only healing back a mere fraction of the damage being dealt out, and pretty much the most effective use I got out of it was toward the end helping Combattler bounce up and down the Potential threshold so that the Potential Temp HP could kick in multiple times.

Prior to the match I felt Combattler was the strongest unit in the SC, due to its' subpilots being able to supply a ton of stats and abilities to the main pilot; now I'd have to say it's a tossup between Combattler and Getter. With a trio of Getter specialized pilots, Getter's adapability via its' form changing is not to be underestimated; being able to switch between forms to take advantage of its' wildly different HP/DP totals to shrug off far more attacks than a normal unit of its' rank can, in addition to the varying types of attacks, make it easily the game's most flexible unit so far.

As for quickness of play, deploying (which admittedly is taking longer than normal since the capability of copy/pasting pilots in from your BEL doesn't exist yet) and posting the first turn still take an eternity, but after that things do indeed speed up quite a bit over v3.

I think v4 in the end accomplishes quite a bit of what it intended to do. It still very much needs some tweaking, but the core is rather solid.

I don't really have much to add that Tilus didn't cover except a couple small things: While evade made it so my skirmisher could pretty well ignore attacks, it also became the only thing keeping her alive when it came down to rocket tag. I think the big problem isn't so much the amount reduced as it is evade and block covering ALL defense phases making shields and countermeasures quite powerful since it becomes 1 use = free massive DR/DC for the entire turn.

For barriers/armors and , I do agree that they should be boosted a bit (both free and ones with an EN cost, though the ones with EN cost should probably get a bit of a boost over free ones) since, while their numbers worked out in v3 it was only because you had multiple layers of DR to fall back on. If you don't have countermeasures, shield, or at the very least counter, and are low on SP/outright lack defensive commands ~1000 reduction is pretty much just trying to bail out a ship that's already under water.

Also Tilus' mention of my builds disregarding the morale system isn't ENTIRELY accurate, the set up was more a case of me having not dealt with the system prior to this and having to throw the pilots together on short notice due to time constraints in real life conflicting with when Tilus put up the deploy. In the end I found my lack of morale gaining abilities put me at a severe disadvantage against Tilus since it took me several turns to build up enough morale to fire off something big to his throwing them out every other turn. I actually ended up resorting to spamming (P) attacks against him to try to wear his morale down with knock away so that I only had to deal with one super attack at a time most of the time (which is a nice change from v3's (M) and (P) attacks being mostly useless).

And finally that 1 round (H) on my units (the All-Out Attack on the super valks I was using) I ended up holding off on using because they didn't have a morale cost and I became somewhat confused as to if this was intentional or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

how about the balance between dodge in RRs and tank in SRs? is dodging a viable strategy now?

I recommend you try it out and report back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't have much to report for my fight. My Shining Gundam Kai was underwhelming, but I imagine that most of that was due to messing up my pilot build.

 

I'd like to test it with the upgrade and with a properly constructed pilot, at some point, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As mentioned in #sc4e:

- Almost everything systemwise I would have wanted to cover in a What Are You Waiting Four report I already covered in the Four Glory and Honor report. The former was a fairly defensive team I built when you could still count the number of statted units on one hand, but wound up being fairly decent offensively nonetheless. I did get a bit too trusting in its' offensive capabilities towards the end of the amount of the fight that did take place when I tried to land a killshot on Mystyrio's Mazinger, forgetting/not quite realizing just what a Getter was capable of.

- Not a whole lot to talk about regarding Advance Fourward, of course, but it does bring to light that while there's a ton of simplifications that make fighting easier, the system sounds like it is still very newbie unfriendly.

At the moment I'm going to wait for tweaks to be made to the system now that playtesting data has brought issues to light, as well as for a few more units to be statted so that a 5v5 can be fought with team variety, before I start calling for more test matches.

Edited by Tilus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So hey in a discussion about motherships and pilot seats and all that, I got to thinking about how G Generation does ship slots.  Specifically you assign particular characters to specific jobs on a ship.  So I came up with http://simchamber.net/Shops/index.php?title=Hangar_Lexicon#Mothership_Crew'>this inherent based on the idea and wanted to ask people if they thought it was too complicated and if they'd rather just use the standard http://simchamber.net/Shops/index.php?title=Hangar_Lexicon#Pilot_Seats_.28x.29'>pilot seats for ships instead.

Edited by Mechalomaniac

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems fine, though 1: It increases complexity and 2: It makes motherships a whole lot (potentially) better, which will have to be taken into account.

 

(Then again, a dedicated mothership crew does that already, just not as much.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That setup exacerbates the "stick a bunch of stat-boosting Subpilots to buff the main" tactic Tilus was talking about with Combattler and is kinda complex as written. It would get Element System level crazy at high levels, but so would anything involving a bunch of high level Copilots.

It is really cool, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Going Fourth on a New Adventure Report

With a large number of Basic units having been completed, I decided it would be a good idea to test what would happen if a few total newbies to the SC had a v4 match, which meant a fight with only L1 newbie pilots, Basic units, and perishables found in the newbie freebie pack. And since Umb wanted to see fights in the "expected" 5v5 format, I upped the size of the fight to that level.

My deploy was pretty straightforward - two tanks (Combattler, which even at L1 remains an enormous tub of SP, and Grungust, which sported a hilarious barrier) and three offensive units (a Valk, with immense dodginess and tons of high powered missiles, Midori, with two high powered melee attacks, and Cybuster, with a MAP). Having seen the potential of what a setup that cares not about silly things like Morale could do in my fight against Yuu, I went with a selection of units that for the most part likewise would have no particular desire to keep Morale high - or really need to have any Morale around at all.

Kirby seemed to go along most of the same lines, making Combattler a warlord support type instead, and using Guren and Mazinger instead of Midori and Cybuster. He did still have a stupidly tanky Grungust, however, and seeing that so long as Grungust stuck around I really couldn't effectively damage any other unit outside the MAP. So, I made it priority one to try to wipe his Grungust off the map; once that's out of the way I can take my sweet time and conserve resources by leisurely picking off the other four. And given the firepower I had available on turn one, I decided to give oneshotting his Grungust a shot.

Of course, the Grungust's barrier remained stupidly potent and managed to hold firm through my initial onslaught, and as a result the battle quickly degraded into a flailfest to see whose Grungust would buckle under first. Unfortunately the fight only lasted for five turns, and after Kirby attempted to unleash a killshot attempt of his own (which I likewise batted away), he seemed to have lost all motivation or something and didn't post for over a week, whereupon I decided there's little point in continuing to wait and had the match called.

Overall I see two new issues that arose in this fight:

1) In response to my statement after Yuu's fight that Combattler's barrier was a fairly ineffective deterrent, Grungust (which was statted after the fight) was given a much stronger barrier. I do think that the dev team overcompensated on this; beyond the initial killshot attempt on my part, both of our Grungusts were effectively tanking all the firepower from the entire other side, and fairly effortlessly too, both continuing to run strong five turns in while warding off attacks doing no more than blocking (even after the nerf) and Iron Wall L1. Both of us were exhausting significant resources to try to wipe out the other's Grungust first, and I expect that by the time both were off the field we would've exhausted most of our resources and be reduced to At-Will: The At-Willing for no other reason than to continue the fight long enough to squeeze out enough resources to dispose of the rest of the team. (And I would not have been surprised to see the fight end in a draw with the only survivors being the two exhausted Valks staring each other down.)

2) This could also have been a side effect of the participants I've chosen to fight against me (though I am hardly guiltless of it myself, having gone over the prone limit myself a few times over the course of the fights I've been in), but despite the simplification of the math formulas, it seems that conducting fights where you control multiple units remains a very emotionally exhausting process. This makes four test fights I've been in and not a single one has come anywhere close to its' natural conclusion before my opponent emotionally threw in the towel, and if the typical turnaround post times I see become a norm, and you intend to maintain the idea of fights operating under a time limit, I see the vast majority of fights ending by timeout (and a large portion of those as a 0 kill-0 kill draw) rather than naturally ending. I did see similar problems arise in SDSC - another system that, like SCv4, attempted to simplify math as a reason to encourage people to fight with large teams - and I think it is a fairly big reason why the SDSC never took off. And this is starting to become a fairly worrying trend here as well.

In any case, however, once more stuff gets statted I would like to ultimately run a fight with maxed pilots, R15 units, and all items, though that looks like it might still be a ways down the road. Most likely I'll continue to run more newbie-level and mid-level fights in the interim.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Echoing what Tilus said; with the addition that between misunderstanding the item rules (I went with a Newbie Pack's worth of gear) and the Midori being a much better choice than the Guren, I realized I had lost on deploy. I could have waited out the Midori for a while longer (and I did manage to wait out Cybuster), but five, ten, twenty turns later Popov woyld have gone down and it would be all over but the crying. The Vs couldn't off-tank as effectively as the opposing Combattler and I had no Batteries to press the Commander's lazylord advantage for the kind of grind that bout would turn into. A bout of acute depression due to other things, coinciding with the failed killshot, caused me to mentally throw in the towel.

The 'Gust is way, way too tanky with that barrier but the damage numbers seem funky in general. On one hand, the 'Gust or a defense specced Combattler V/Getter 3/Mazinger Z maybe can tank 'til the cows come home. Valks and the Guren can dodge-tank almost as well, but don't get the sweet extra seishin. On the other, a concentrated assault on something that isn't one of those units will probably one-shot them. It's high-level SCv3 at the low levels.

In basic terms, keeping track of five units is a lot of work and adds complexity where the simpler math takes away. Without higher level seishin or things like Counter Zone, there's still no real point in playing around with different attacks: just go with the heaviest hitter you have until you're forced into at-wills, with minor variations (BP vs. Barrier, high Acc vs. only a dodger, a low-morale/no morale option if you have a good (H) or are fishing for Attacker/Cyber Newtype bonuses).

In my personal opinion, level 1 characters don't have a lot to make them unique other than what numbers are bigger, which exacerbates the unit problem. Basics, given their nature, don't get a lot of toys to play with either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2) This could also have been a side effect of the participants I've chosen to fight against me (though I am hardly guiltless of it myself, having gone over the prone limit myself a few times over the course of the fights I've been in), but despite the simplification of the math formulas, it seems that conducting fights where you control multiple units remains a very emotionally exhausting process. This makes four test fights I've been in and not a single one has come anywhere close to its' natural conclusion before my opponent emotionally threw in the towel, and if the typical turnaround post times I see become a norm, and you intend to maintain the idea of fights operating under a time limit, I see the vast majority of fights ending by timeout (and a large portion of those as a 0 kill-0 kill draw) rather than naturally ending. I did see similar problems arise in SDSC - another system that, like SCv4, attempted to simplify math as a reason to encourage people to fight with large teams - and I think it is a fairly big reason why the SDSC never took off. And this is starting to become a fairly worrying trend here as well.

I would like to reiterate my reasoning for throwing up the white flag for our fight was due to a mix of having to rush a deploy on short notice and being caught towards the end of a semester that amounted to "go to bed super late, wake up super early four days a week, be buried in all the homework forever.", and slight frustration since the conversation leading to the fight amounted to "Hey I should challenge you to a thing sometime." "OKAY FIGHT QUEUED UP!" "Oh ._. *cobbles together a team in under and hour*".

 

Edit: Also, on the topic of the barrier issue, since each barrier/illusion/etc seems to have its own value now it should probably be tied to rank properly like weapon damage and accuracy are, since a 2000 DR barrier might be entirely godlike at rank 3 where attackers are struggling just to push over 2000 damage or so, but only be 'average' at rank 6~7 where things throwing out over 2000 damage are fairly common. Conversely, the grungust's new barrier value (900) would probably work well at its current rank but would likely be slightly more effective than trying to defend yourself with papier mache as its rank increases (since I'm not entirely sure how 'basic' forms of units interact with the top level forms ('SRG-02 Grungust Type-2' and 'SRG-02 Grungust Type-2 Basic' in this example) at the moment this may not entirely be an issue, but it should still probably be taken into consideration.)

Edited by Yuu Inohara

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello, long time!

 

Sorry for necroing this, but just wanted to add my 2 cents about some of the changes without adding a new redundant thread.

 

I have not read all of it yet, just a quick read to some of the rule pages to remember stuff and see what changed.

Also, I liked this game a lot, played constantly for like a year, and I think I will be rejoining, so Im just trying to give positive criticism, please dont see this as flaming or anything.

And also, I know the changes are already in place, so this will be more like "what I think of" rather than proposing stuff.

 

First of all, I think it was always clear this game was, basically, a resource management game. Yeah, on many levels (HP, DP, AP, SP etc), and with some roleplaying in bewten (depending of the player), but the outcome was in the end the resources. The first person to deplete the defensive resources of the opponent wins. And usually, it was the DP. 

What I think what the biggest problem of the old rule set was how dodge was handled. Having 3000 Dp (I recall correcly?) and an average of 250 agi, meant a cost of like 300-400 Dp per turn, after taking offensive and defensive modifiers in account. This means you had to waste like 10 turns (in theory, more to follow) only to be able to hit the target. And then we have the stuff to replenish DP. So as most knew this, the norm was to field a unit with an X attack (like funnels). Because that effectively meant defending against a X:8, you just spent your entire DP pool in a couple of turns. And on a unit like this, after the DP was over, a single attack would easily kill it (6000 damage on like 4000 hp).

 

So in My eyes, X attacks, made Dodger's units basically useless. You were fated to lose unless your opponent fielded a unit without an X attack.

In fact I remember having brought this up, to some how nerf the X type attack. And the reply was negative, because that would mean a big overhaul. 

And so I always used tanky mechas and battleships. And I usually won. Soaking damage was WAY more effective than dodging it.

 

Reading the game's mechanic changes, I see now variable attacks (V) are very similar to X's attacks in that they both basically add a lot to dodge cost. I think this will positively make a lot more mechas viable. Also, the DP now seems to be a ratio of the old static 3000 Dp in relation to the old AGI, and the attacks have a plain number of DP cost instead of a % bonus. So basically less calculations as the changes premise was.

I dont know if this will make a Dodger playstyle viable again, only playing will say. Plus I still have not seen the pilot changes. But im looking forward it.

 

On that note, I have yet to see if there are changes regarding pilot slots. That was another very OP mechanic, basically you could cast x4 or more spells per game, if you used a multi seat unit (say 6 seats). That meant more HP/DP replenishes than your opponent, which added that to my "(X) on DP" point, just made things even worse. (Double the DP? double the time to hit your opponent that he/she has to hit you).

 

Also I really like the idea of those H (hiatsu?) attacks. Before this, it was basically granted everyone would be using their most potent attack all the time, from the start. This add more variability to the battles, which in turn help the roleplaying.

 

Im yet to find out that those new icons (fist sword pistol, etc) next to the [+] and [F] means. Not sure if they have a mechanic behind or just are eye candy (these ones  [CS]  [CC]  [MAM])

 

Rounding up, I think the changes looks very promising indeed. Im looking forward to test them on the battlefield. Regards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The [CC][CS] and [MAM] icons are for weapons capable of being used to Countercut, Countershoot, and Countercut through the use of the Martial Arts Master's Blade Grasp ability. In a broader sense [MAM] also means "This unit has arms". I'll add a note on those to the weapon rules.

Pilots Seats now reduce both the total SP of a pilot and can remove the total number of spirit commands they can cast (for that fight) depending on how many seats it has. A 2 seat until will be penalized less than a 6 seat one.

Edited by Mechalomaniac

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites