Umbaglo

SimChamber v4 Player Feedback Thread

17 posts in this topic

So now that SCv4 is live, and players have an opportunity to play with the new rules and stats, we're interested in knowing how you feel about the way things are going! Post here with any comments about any aspect of v4 that you want to give some feedback on; the things that work well, the things that don't, and the things you want to see.

 

However, please only use this thread for feedback about the game. For any problems, bugs, or additions to specific units or rules, please make sure you use the Tracker.

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Thoughts on Rough & Tumble:

- I was playing with fire with my deploy and I knew it, probably even taking Xemposacez a bit for granted due to his newbie status. Yeah, while I had success with a brawler in Midori from the test fights, bringing in a glass cannon brawler with no recovery and no meat shields was just begging for an early dirt nap. He very well could've beat me had he pounced upon Midori from the very start of the match and never let up on the pressure - I would've been surprised to see Midori reach turn 3 in that case. And with both the Demonbane and the Valk up against only Granny and her Zaku, I would've likely been eventually worn out, even though that was the only pilot in the whole match to bring recovery and I had the advantage of actually bringing items.

- For being what started off as a game of rocket tag, we sure exhausted ourselves pretty quickly. A mere 5 turns into the match, with both Midori and the Valk out of the picture, my Zaku was left with only its' lower-situational weapons retaining ammo and Xempo's Demonbane running on fumes. I came out ahead since the Zaku had just ever so slightly more weaponry left, but had Xempo really wanted to he probably could've run me entirely out of ammo and resulted me in clumsily flailing at him with Shoulder Tackles or something for another dozen turns.

- Xemposacez, please go buy some items. Seriously.

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That's what I plan to do. Believe me, the moment I realized just how much a single piece of even Rank 1 equipment could benefit a unit, I figured I would be stocking up on them for a while.

 

From what I've experienced so far between Rough and Tumble and Fresh Blood, I would like to offer praise to the Morale system and the way it further implements risk/reward situations. It'll still be quite a while before I get to play at higher levels and with access to even more Will Commands, but I can say for certain that having been on both the giving and receiving end of a 150 Morale (H) attack has been oddly enlightening for me. And terrifying. In a good way, though.

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I think the series of skills that activates at 50% hp, and gives you temporal hp, need a bit of a nerf. 

 

The problem is, as you are the defender, lets say an attack  hits you for 10.000, and you are 3000 away to get to 50%, its very easy to just micromanage the defense to let slip just the amount you need, and this kicks in. 

It would not be really a big problem if it werent for Regen.

 

In my curent fight with Tilus, we both are getting insane amount of temporal Hp, every turn, by leting ourselves get damaged to just below 50% real Hp (using barriers, block and etc), and using the innate/item granted Hp regen to every turn go back above 50% and thus reactivating this skill.

 

In our case its the skill granted by the Defender class, but I know there are a lot more skills that uses this "<50%" mechanic. Our skill gives 20% temp hp, coupled with the hp regen of the units, is a lot of free hp to soak damage per turn (30% in my case, 50% in his)

 

Im not saying this is undefeatable, but it certainly lengthens the battle unnecesarily by a lot.

 

The nerf that would work without making the skill useless would be, in my opinion, raising how much % of real Hp is needed for the skill to activate again. Say, for example, it gives you the temp Hp when you drop below 50%, just as it is today, but you need to raise it back to 75% to be able to get the bonus again.

 

With the ones that gives DP, the problem isnt that big I think, for the reason DP regen is not as common as Hp regen, so it way harder to abuse.

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A Rocky Road to Victory Report:

- Yeeeeeeah. Echoing what Krelian said, putting someone with Potential/Guts in a unit with HP/DP regen basically lets them live an eternity and a half. Though the fight at first glance looked like a heated match, we were in effect doing little better than flailing at each other with sticks. Neither one of us could really hope to kill the other in anything resembling a reasonable amount of time, so we called the match.

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Chuunibyou: The Fight The Epic Battle For The Fate Of The Universe Report:

- The issues surrounding Supporter (Singer) have already been known by you guys and addressed in kind, so I'll pass on repeating them here.

- So my glorious plan to raise a dedicated Zaku pilot to the point where it can slay [insert R13-R15 Final Boss Name Here] seems to have a few hitches in it, since it wasn't nearly as big a factor in the battle as either of my other two DPS units. On the other hand, this is probably as much an issue with my initial oversight of the misc non-attribute non-weapon mods as anything; maybe putting a DPS build in a similar very low ranking unit in another exhibition match will yield better results.

- While it wasn't very apparent in the fight since Yuu ended up taking the bait anyways, it seems Skirmisher is turning out to be absolute garbage in regards to forcing opponents to fight it instead of its' allies with its' D&D 4e mark-esque mechanic, with Skirmisher (Distractor) being double garbage in that respect. Since the Skirmisher Damage/Accuracy debuff lands in the Misc phase - which is already seeing huge positive mods of its' own and which stacks additively with your similarly huge stat mods! - the debuff turns out to be a very, very flimsy deterrant from completely ignoring the Skirmisher. And then when you add in Distractor's Preying on Inattention, where the Distractor will gain huge pools of Temp DP on every attack if its' opponents do decide to take the bait, you have ample, ample reason to actually ignore the Skirmisher entirely and go after its' allies.

- As Shoji and Melissa Calhoun will soon attest to, the ability to consistantly fire a MAP weapon is very, very powerful in this incarnation of the SC.

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While my own fight is not over yet, I want to second the Skirmisher thing, but with a different reasoning.

 

If the distraction is part of a big block of support defended attacks, or even aimed at the tank, blocking makes distraction worthless.

 

You're not attacking, so you don't even care about the mods, and even if you were, 10% doesn't seem a big deal compared to the masses of other mods applied.

 

On MAPs? I have yet to see if it's effective as it looks, but it does look very effective. I can't quite spam MAPs, but I certainly could have if I'd brought a Key of Victory and wasn't struggling to make my Gaddess survive anyway. While I wouldn't be able to keep the morale high for long, losing 10 morale every round and my singer's attack phase is a small price to pay for such crushing damage.

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If the distraction is part of a big block of support defended attacks, or even aimed at the tank, blocking makes distraction worthless.

Support Defense does not affect Distraction at all. Yes, if I was attacking the tank and Distracted them, that's not all that useful, but the debuff applies to the original target regardless of whether the attack hits or not.

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going over the hangar stats, it seems that if you raise a low level unit from say rank 1 to rank 15 kai, it would be broken compared to something more contemporary, like a rank 13 raised to a rank 15 unit. there would be an absurd damage to resource ratio. for round based weapons, ammo would be really low. while for EN weapons, EN cost would be ridiculously cheap against damage dealt.

 

also, it appears that we do not have enough of a player base to get the faction system in v4 to be a workable thing....I would suggest that perhaps it could be changed to something like the faction rules in NJU, or perhaps a mix of the 2...think WoW's factions and guilds.

Edited by Largo

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As we scale weapon costs to the base stats, the efficiency of the weapon doesn't really change as you increase in rank since EN doesn't also increase. Now, sure. You could take the +20% EN FUB, but at best you can only do that twice (a R1 would need to be able to reach R16 in order to increase 15 ranks to get a third FUB), which you're taking at the expense of other bonuses; all of which are designed to keep the unit competitive with ones that are naturally the rank they are now.

In addition, the formula for up-scaling is based on the formula we use for determining base stats per rank, so the results should be fairly on-par.

Do you have any examples of units that come out far above the norm? We might have just overlooked something, but I don't see any just by looking at the math.

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Ok, math might be a bit off, but this gives you a general idea:

 

Zaku I Rank 1
HP: 1700, DP: 2000, EN: 70
Melee (M)- 250 damage, 250 accuracy, 2 EN/attack
Shoulder Tackle (M)- 300 damage, 200 accuracy, 2 EN/attack
Heat Hawk Type3 (M)- 550 damage, 750 accuracy, 15 EN/attack
ZMP-47D/120mm Machine Gun- 800 damage, 500 accuracy, 5 rounds
H&L-SB21K/280mmA-N Zaku Bazooka- 1800 damage, 800 accuracy, 2 rounds, 10 Morale
 
Zaku I Rank 15 Kai
HP: 76976, DP: 90560, EN: 3170
Melee (M)- 11320 damage, 11320 accuracy, 2 EN/attack
Shoulder Tackle (M)- 13584 damage, 9056 accuracy, 2 EN/attack
Heat Hawk Type3 (M)- 24904 damage, 33960 accuracy, 15 EN/attack
ZMP-47D/120mm Machine Gun- 36224 damage, 22640 accuracy, 5 rounds
H&L-SB21K/280mmA-N Zaku Bazooka- 81504 damage, 36224 accuracy, 2 rounds, 10 Morale
 
Zfylud Rank 13
HP: 50000, DP: 20000, EN: 140
Melee (M)- 5100 damage, 5000 accuracy, 3 EN/attack
Cross Blade (M)- 10000 damage, 13700 accuracy, 15 EN/attack
Ald Laser (S)- 14500 damage, 9200 accuracy, 20 EN/attack
Omega Wave- 16000 damage, 14000 accuracy, 40 EN/attack, 10 Morale
Zehn Gebote (H)- 27000 damage, 23000 accuracy, 90 EN/attack, 40 Morale
 
Zfylud Rank 15 Kai
HP: 97000, DP: 38800, EN: 272
Melee (M)- 9894 damage, 9700 accuracy, 3 EN/attack
Cross Blade (M)- 19400 damage, 26578 accuracy, 15 EN/attack
Ald Laser (S)- 28130 damage, 17848 accuracy, 20 EN/attack
Omega Wave- 31040 damage, 27160 accuracy, 40 EN/attack, 10 Morale
Zehn Gebote (H)- 52380 damage, 44620 accuracy, 90 EN/attack, 40 Morale
 
So using a weapon from everyone's favorite mook target (and rule example), the Zaku:
 
Melee (M)- 11320 damage, 11320 accuracy, 2 EN/attack
thats 5660 damage, 5660 accuracy per EN
 
and the highest base ranked unit that I can remember off the top of my head:
 
Melee (M)- 9894 damage, 9700 accuracy, 3 EN/attack
thats 3298 damage, 3233 accuracy per EN
 
 
and comparing those that use the same amount of energy:
 
Heat Hawk Type3 (M)- 24904 damage, 33960 accuracy, 15 EN/attack
Cross Blade (M)- 19400 damage, 26578 accuracy, 15 EN/attack
 
Almost 20-30 % in the Zaku's favor.
 
for their "big guns":
 
H&L-SB21K/280mmA-N Zaku Bazooka- 81504 damage, 36224 accuracy, 2 rounds, 10 Morale
Zehn Gebote (H)- 52380 damage, 44620 accuracy, 90 EN/attack, 40 Morale
 
30 % in damage in favor of the Zaku, accuracy not far off, lost morale cost. Granted, ammo is low..but if you have a morale booster/boosting item and a ammo regen item, or a magazine, or something similar, you could keep spamming that a lot.
 
Its similar to the Tactical nuke Nuclear Bazooka for the GP02A knockoff in v3 without the constraints.
 
and HP, DP, EN:
 
Zaku I Rank 15 Kai
HP: 76976, DP: 90560, EN: 3170
 
Zfylud Rank 15 Kai
HP: 97000, DP: 38800, EN: 272
 
Unless I added an extra zero in there somewhere, its really bloated in the Zaku's favor.
 
Weapons in general in the Zaku's favor (even if ammo is kinda low).
 
HP for the 2 is relatively on par, but DP and EN is another thing entirely. if you go with a 10% EN regen item, you would never almost never run low on EN for the weapons. Same thing with DP, with a DP regen item and something that gives Illusion or bunshin or just a dodge build. True, Zfylud has innate EN/HP regen, but if the Zaku uses the FUB for IS or regen items (or uses regen items in the IS), it would swing then to the Zaku. 
Edited by Largo

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I may not be too familiar with the system, myself, but I can already see two things wrong with your math: the Zaku I is a Rank 2 Unit (not a Rank 1), and EN does not get increased with Rank. Therefore, it's base stats and weapons at Rank 15 Kai should look more like:

 

HP: 59211, DP: 69660, EN: 70
Melee (M)- 8708 damage, 8708 accuracy, 2 EN/attack
Shoulder Tackle (M)- 10449 damage, 6966 accuracy, 2 EN/attack
Heat Hawk Type3 (M)- 19157 damage, 26123 accuracy, 15 EN/attack
ZMP-47D/120mm Machine Gun- 27864 damage, 17415 accuracy, 5 rounds
H&L-SB21K/280mmA-N Zaku Bazooka- 62694 damage, 27864 accuracy, 2 rounds, 10 Morale
 
While it still has some advantages over the Rank 15 Kai Zyflud, these raw numbers don't take into account things like the IS value of both units, the Zaku's upgrade bonuses, or the Zyflud's Inherent Abilities (HP Regen 15%, EN Regen 25, and a 21340 Damage/15 EN Barrier), so determining just which is overall superior isn't so simple.

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To add what Xemposacez brought up, out of personal experience, low ranked units raised up sky high are in general a little bit weaker than things that naturally occur at high ranks. There's a pretty noticeable gap between Rank 10 (where most of the strongest protagonist units reside) and Rank 11 (the lowest tier of major/series ending bosses), too, since suddenly you see a massive spike in the amount of regen that starts showing up inherently in units.

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Yeah, as I said Largo, EN doesn't increase when you upgrade. We specifically decided on an EN scale that is very flat across all ranks as part of game balance, so EN doesn't get upgraded as a result.

And what Tilus mentions is why we have those FUB options. Gaining up to +2 IS can help shore up the differences between inherent abilities as you go up in rank.

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It was perhaps two turns into This Stuff Isn't Cheap that I realized that the group I was using stood little chance in repelling the Attacking Team; between two beefy Units carrying Repair Kits and Pilots with Vigor and a Skirmisher keeping my heaviest hitter Distracted, there would have been no way for me to effectively stall the Enetron capturing. I haven't played enough Enetron Defense to be sure, but I'm thinking there might be something that needs to be altered in there to balance the favor between the Attacking and Defending Teams.

 

I can say that this experience has not deterred me from wanting to try again, but I'm going to need to rethink how I'm going to build myself when on the Defending Team, since I'm now more strongly aware of how it requires you to focus more on quickly dispatching or interrupting the Attacking Team.

Edited by Xemposacez

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So yeah, Enetron Defense is busted. Probably even worse than I had initially thought.

It's looking like CyberLegion is going to run off with the 10 units of Enetron without so much as even breaking a sweat, despite bringing a pretty ridiculous offensive force - including three hyper-damage focused DPSes with an almost completely damage-loaded item layout, two of which brought spammable MAPs and the third laying down a wall of mines to greet him when he reached the tank - the only non-DPSes were a tank to prevent any idea of a win by default and a support bot to make sure the rest of the offense can stay on the offense.

And, by the looks of it, I think CyberLegion could run off with 20 units of Enetron no problem before I can even put any pressure on his guys, even if I were to have theoretically infinite resources and morale to burn on my units' strongest attacks. And really I think he could even get away with taking 30 units from the tank before I could bring him down.

And the saddest part of it is, considering his setup going all-in on defense it's really difficult to come up with an improvement on my deploy to counter his without leaving it vulnerable to other strategies, like a win by default, the only possible obvious alteration being swapping out the Re-GZ with a third MAP using unit, and even that won't make much of a difference. And besides, that counter is pretty specific to the stips in the fight; at higher ranks, when his skirmishers are able to distract multiple units, that won't work either.

When I first brought this to the other mods I thought it might be possible to fix the mission by making it more difficult to empty out the tank, but now I'm not so sure. Making the tank too much larger would make the mission almost too tempting for the defending team to avoid stall tactics to win. Honestly, I dunno now. There may not be a fix.

Edited by Tilus

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